Cardinal Dolan on Faith, Politics, Notre Dame, and the Future of NYC| National Catholic Register
Cardinal Timothy Dolan, archbishop emeritus of New York, recently sat down in New York with EWTN News national correspondent Mark Irons at “New York Encounter.”
This “exit interview” covers many topics, including the cardinal’s pastoral legacy, assisted suicide in New York, the pro-abortion-appointment controversy at Notre Dame, and the need to recover Catholic culture. The following transcript has been edited for clarity.
So many people in the Church are sad that you are no longer the archbishop of New York, but so happy for all the years spent. They’re already asking you to come back in and share your services. The New York Police Department, they’ve even named you “co-chief chaplain.” How does that feel? Are you looking forward to that?
Call me off the bench. Well, I was sitting home reading the want ads, saying, “What am I going to do now?” No, I was very moved by that. Of course, you never retire from being a priest or a bishop. People think that, and I’m always eager to clarify — no, you’re a priest, you’re a bishop forever. However, you retire from an assignment; you retire from an appointment, like I did, as the archbishop of New York. But then you still want to do a lot of priestly things, don’t you? You still want to do a lot of spiritual and pastoral things. So when the commissioner, Jessica Tisch, who does a fine job as police commissioner, called and said, “We kind of need some help, and we need a new chief of chaplains” — because the one that was marvelous for a long time, the rabbi, Rabbi [Alvin] Kass, had died — and she said, “We want to have two co-chaplains. We want to have an evangelical pastor from the African American community, and we want to have you.” She explained it was kind of part time, because there are full-time chaplains in the department, but I was honored. And at first, Mark, I said, “I don’t think so.” She said, “No, it’s not a full-time job. You kind of do what you want.” She was gracious enough to say, “You’re doing a lot of it anyway.” She said, “You’re always visiting the cops in the hospital or baptisms or weddings or funerals. So it’s kind of just that.” And she said, “We kind of need you because the morale of the cops is a little low, and their trepidation these difficult days might be a little tested.” So she said, “I think it would be a good shot in the arm if you and Rev. A.R. Bernard came aboard.” So I hope it was, to be of service. My grandpa was a police officer in Maplewood, Missouri, and so I got it in my bones. And you cannot be archbishop in New York without love of the police department … and guess what? About at least 35%, if not more, of the police department is Catholic.
I do want to ask you about some news. This month in the state, the Medical Aid in Dying Act was signed.
Well, you got right to bad news right away. We start off with good news. [Mark Irons: We got to jump into it.] This is bad, isn’t it? Am I shocked? You bet I’m shocked. Am I surprised? I’m not surprised. Because why should not the abortion capital of the United States, if not the world, New York, now become the euthanasia capital? If human life is cheap, if the dignity of the human person and the sacredness of human life is not respected, especially when it’s most vulnerable — the baby in the womb or grandma in hospice — why would we not be surprised? If human life is thought to be burdensome, if its only value is that it’s useful, or that it can produce, or that it’s not inconvenient to me, then we’re in trouble. We’re in trouble. Why do you think we have these shoot-em-ups? Why do you think we have violence on the street? You know what I’m saying? Because human life is so cheap. And now we got another example here in New York.
I want to ask you: In a way, we’re entering a new era in New York City. Archbishop Hicks replaces you now.
What a gem he is.
One of the things that softened [the transition] — it’s a little sad retiring, ’cause I love the work. But as I mentioned to you, I tell my people, “I’m not your spiritual father anymore. I’m your spiritual granddad.” So I’ll still be around and still looking forward to it. But one of the things that softened the sadness of retirement would be 17 happy years and a magnificent successor, Archbishop Ronald Hicks. He’s a real gem. I’ve gotten to know him pretty well since I got the call that he was going to be my successor, and I admire him immensely.
Absolutely. At the same time we have a new archbishop in New York, we also have a new mayor, Zohran Mamdani. I think a lot of Americans, or perhaps some Americans, might have been concerned when they heard him self-identify as a Democratic socialist. The second part of that title, “Socialist” and “Democratic Socialist,” may be the reason. Some bristled at that title. You met with Mamdani before he became mayor. What can you share about that meeting? What is your takeaway after spending time with him?
Well, they ought to bristle if somebody identifies himself or herself as a socialist. That’s not part of … that’s sort of the opposite of what America is. He’s a refreshingly honest and approachable guy and obviously a man of high ideals, some of which I would disagree with. I asked him point-blank. I said, “Why did they say you’re a socialist?” He said, “Cause I am.” He said, “Now, I’m kind of an economic socialist, not a political one.” Now, “socialism” is defined as what? Government ownership of the means of production. He says, “I’m not that.” He says, “I’m an economic socialist in that I want greater distribution of the wealth.” Well, who doesn’t, in one way? So let’s see. Let’s see. So far, we were ticked off that he didn’t … I was ticked off he didn’t invite me to his inauguration. Most of the time, the archbishop of New York, among other religious leaders, gets invited. I was ticked off that he didn’t have. … He had few, few, few, few, few Catholics on his transition team, okay. And then I was really ticked off that he didn’t show up at the installation of my successor. [Mark Irons: That defied precedent, the mayor not showing up to the installation of the archbishop.] Well, I mean, New York — one of the many things I love about New York is the amity among the different religions.
We all get together. We all enjoy one another. The ecumenical and interfaith health of this city is phenomenal. And so I show up at all of them, and they show up, and the political leaders always show up, not because of the clout of the Catholic Church, if it has any left, but just out of respect for the fact that a big chunk of the citizens of this great city profess the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church as their family of religious choice; and that the Church has an amazing part to play in the social fabric of this metropolis. He didn’t come. Neither did the governor, by the way.
Gov. [Kathy] Hochul, who identifies as a Catholic herself.
But on Mamdani and the Church’s work with the city on different issues, for those that aren’t aware of this, remind us: What are those areas of conflict with someone like Mayor Mamdani, and are there areas of common ground that the Church can work with?
Well, we would, I hope so, yes. Yes, there should be. Well, areas of conflict, we wouldn’t know yet.
He has shown some opposition to some of those fundamental life issues the Church is a champion of, it seems like.
We haven’t seen much [Mark Irons: in terms of policy] work that he’s done. But policy, what he professes, I’m afraid he would be an avowed Democrat, meaning he’s not pro-life, right? You worry, is he going to protect religious liberty? You worry if he’s going to protect the dignity and the definition of the family. And you worry, too, we may have some other areas where we’re saying, “Hey, not bad.” [Mark Irons: Such as?] His openness to the immigrant, his desire for fair housing, his earnest desire to increase the income and the prosperity of most of the people in this town. If those are issues that he’s favorable to, I’d say, “Bingo, let’s go with it.” But you know, Mark, this ain’t our first rodeo. It’s not like his predecessors have been real pro-life and real pro-Church. I mean, we’ve had some tough go with all of them. They’ve had a lot of good. So when I got here, [the mayor] was Mayor Bloomberg, who was a hardworking good guy, extraordinarily good to me, but we had some dissent. De Blasio, very courteous to me, kept in touch a lot. We had a lot of disagreements. Eric Adams — and now Mamdani.
So it’s not going to be new if there’s some [disagreement]. … No political figure bats a thousand when it comes to “Are their values aligned with those of the Gospel, as professed for 2,000 years faithfully by the Church?” I always figure this: If a politician gets a C-plus, it ain’t bad, all right? Because some of them flunk.
Well, I want to ask you, for politicians that aren’t Catholic, we might not be surprised when they don’t follow or they’re not influenced by, say, tenets of Catholicism. But for many, there’s scandal when a politician who identifies as Catholic might be doing things against Church teaching, such as Gov. Kathy Hochul, when she signed that assisted-suicide bill. I was wondering if you could lay out for us: A Catholic politician — what should their work look like? How should their faith influence their policymaking? What does that look like? What does it mean to be a Catholic politician?
Well, it should have a lot of impact. Gov. Hochul says it does. She says that it does. It should have a lot of impact. But Mark, get this. She’s not for things or against things because she’s a Catholic. She’s for things and against things because she’s a thinking, rational human being; any politician this should be, who is guided by the principles that have illuminated a civilization and particularly this country. So, one, a politician isn’t opposed to abortion because he or she happens to be Catholic. That’s baloney. You’re opposed to abortion because it’s a taking of an innocent human life. A Catholic politician isn’t against racism or bigotry because he or she is a Catholic. You bet that the Catholic Church is opposed to that. He or she is opposed to bigotry and racism simply because that is contrary to everything this nation stands for. Correct? You’re talking about kind of human reason. You’re talking about what we have come to call natural law. Now, you are right in that there’s kind of an added scandal.
People would expect Catholic politicians to follow some of these natural laws.
You would think that. But I wouldn’t say — for instance, what if a Catholic politician says, “Oh, I’m going to propose a law in the legislature that everybody has to go to Mass on Sunday”? We’d say, “No, they don’t have to go to Mass on Sunday. Don’t even propose that law for Catholics.” All right? Cause that’s a uniquely Catholic cause. Keeping the Sabbath holy, that’s kind of very American, all right? Keeping Sunday special, that’s kind of American. You see the distinction there? [Sure.] It’s not that you get mad at politicians. It might kind of deepen your chagrin when a committed Catholic takes positions that are contrary to the faith. But Catholic positions are Catholic positions because they’re based on human reason, the integrity of the human person, God’s revelation in natural law. Right? You get it? [Mark Irons: I would hope any politician follows that natural law.] You would hope any politician would; an atheist would follow, don’t you think?
Well, on the topic of Catholic politicians, how would you grade one of the highest-profile Catholic politicians in our country, JD Vance? What grade would you give him so far?
I met him a number of times. He’s a very good guy. I enjoy him a lot. I agree with a bunch of stuff that he talks about, you bet. I would sometimes say, “Uh-oh, can’t agree with you there.” He and I had a little tête-a-tête, you probably know, when he suggested that bishops in the United States were pro-immigrant ’cause we were making money, which I said was not only untrue, it was scurrilous, and he apologized, all right. He says that was out of line, and that’s not true. I think when he speaks about the family, when he speaks about babies, when he speaks about patriotism, when he speaks about what I think is a rather moving view of the beauty of what the United States stands for, I say, “Bravo.” Are there other things? I wasn’t too happy with his views on Ukraine. This is before he was vice president. He was not too behind the Ukrainians. But so, there you go again: You’re not going to get anybody batting a thousand. Even Stan Musial, my hero, his lifetime average was what? 3.31, all right. [Mark Irons: I should have known that.] [Both laugh.]
The Church doesn’t fit in any political box. You yourself are on President Trump’s Religious Liberty Commission. I’m assuming you are happy with what you’re seeing from the administration on that front?
I’m happy with the administration that takes religious freedom very seriously, as I think he did. He’s not the only one. We’ve had a presidential commission on religious liberty for quite a while. I’m not the first Catholic to be on it. I think at least for 30 years, there’s been one. But I’m very honored to be on that.
Two concerns I hear Catholics bring up with the Trump administration, one being abortion pills. Now, the majority of abortions in the country come from abortion pills; Catholics might ask, or anyone might ask, why hasn’t the administration done more to limit access to abortion pills, to have restrictions or regulations? The second one being concerns about immigration enforcement carried out by the administration. Any thoughts on either one of those topics?
I’d be upset about both of those, as well. So thanks for bringing them up. I’m glad you kind of coupled them together. Because first of all, we are vigorously concerned about the dignity, the life, of the baby in the womb. The more fragile a life, the more we want to protect it and guard it. So these abortion pills, they don’t help. Not only is it bad, in that it flushes away the tiny baby in the womb, it’s bad because it kind of strengthens the opinion that pregnancy is a disease — that a baby in the womb is someone to get rid of if it happens to be inconvenient or untimely. So this is not all that good. Likewise, are we concerned about another group of fragile people, the baby in the womb? I don’t mind telling you that on the religious freedom [committee], all right — now, most people are thinking, “Oh, I guess there’s Catholics on the religious freedom [committee]. They got to support Trump all the time.” Uh-uh. I don’t mind telling you that Franklin Graham, who’s not a Catholic, and I were very worried when ICE started going into churches and harassing churches. So we had here — in the Archdiocese of New York — that ICE would show up during Sunday Mass, just in trucks and cars, and the people wouldn’t come.
[Mark Irons: That was happening?] That was happening here. I called Rev. Graham and I said, “We need to bring up to the religious freedom [committee] that this is a violation of religious freedom. People have the right to worship on the Sabbath. The federal government cannot impede that or harass it, and they are. Franklin Graham wisely said, “Let’s bring it to the attention of ICE.” And we did. And the director here in New York said, “Thanks for bringing that to my attention. We’re not going to do that here.”
And are they stopping that?
I have yet to hear of any other pastor since then tell me that they’re harassing or outside the churches. So you get my point. As you tied together two issues on the pro-life spectrum, I’m glad you did, because there’s a lot of similarity there.
We talk about Catholic politicians. Let’s talk about Catholic institutions. I’m not sure if you saw, but some of your brother bishops are calling for the rescindment of the appointment of professor Susan Ostermann. She was appointed to lead an academic department [editor’s note: Asian studies institute] at the University of Notre Dame. Do you agree with some of those bishops that her appointment should be rescinded? She is a pro-abortion advocate.
I would agree with them heartily. I would agree with Bishop Kevin Rhoades, who’s the bishop there in South Bend. I would agree with Father Miscamble, who wrote an eloquent article. I would agree with a good chunk of Notre Dame alumni that this is an ill-advised appointment. Notre Dame is a light to the world, as salt to the earth, to use the words of Jesus. And it stands, again, for that double pillar of Catholic social justice, the dignity of the human person and the sanctity of human life. Anything that any university, particularly a prominent Catholic one, would do to dull that light to the world, we shouldn’t do. So I’m glad. Bishop Rhoades, way to go.
I want to ask about that video series you’re doing.
Oh, I’m glad. Are you the one listening to it? [Mark Irons: I’ve seen it.] Way to go.
Because I know the ratings went up from two to three listeners. [Mark Irons laughs.] So I’m glad to meet you.
But seriously, you’ve been doing these posts on social media.
“Worth Recovering.” You like those?
Why are you doing that?
Well, first of all, I do that daily video. I don’t know what they call them. Are they apps or pods or whatever? [Mark Irons: social media posts.] I am illiterate, Mark. Okay? [Mark Irons: It’s okay.] But all I know is I enjoy doing them. All I know is they’re the easiest things in the world to do. And all I know is I’m deeply grateful for people to listen to them, including you. But I’m always thinking, “What am I going to talk about now?” All right? And then a couple of months ago, I said, “You know what? Were there some Catholic practices, devotions, traditions in the past that may not be part of our faith and morals, but our beautifully supportive Catholic practices that we’ve kind of drifted away from and would it be worth bringing back?” I wrote a list of them, and I had about 40 of them. And so I do it for a minute or a minute and a half every day — and thanks for telling me — and they’re simple things: Don’t forget the holy water when you go into church. Don’t forget the genuflection. Don’t forget fasting before Holy Communion. Is that in the Creed? No. Is it important? Yeah. All right. And what about other stuff that nobody thinks about today? What about as you pass a church, which you do about every block here in New York, of making the Sign of the Cross?
Okay, what about even more important things, like more frequent confession? What about the holy days of obligation? What about visiting cemeteries? What about Masses for the deceased? What about the poor souls in purgatory? These are all beautiful Catholic [concepts]. … A sociologist will tell you, Mark Irons, that any human community — and of course, the Church is a divine community, but it’s got human elements — needs certain markers to stay coherent — identifiable traits. We as Catholics used to have a whole buffet of them. They’ve shrunk. No meat on Friday; Lent very seriously for 40 days, not just on Fridays, okay.
Why is it important to recover some of these things? I’ve heard you talk about, growing up, the parish was the center of Catholic life. Maybe the Church as an institution looked a little different back when you were a kid. Are those days dead? Can we return back to those days?
Yes; those are what I call “used-to-be Catholicism.” But it’s not just for us. An intact, coherent Catholic culture, going, going — gone. Where did they have it? And where they had it intently — Ireland, Holland, Quebec [thumbs-down gesture].
Can we recover those things in the U.S.?
Well, what we’d want to do. … Well, I don’t know — we haven’t lost it completely. … You know what a culture is? It’s a sense of shared values, dreams and hopes, okay, and practices that solidify and strengthen those. We have to have that. It’s going to look a little different than when I was a kid. And the culture now, Mark, the culture is now chosen instead of inherited. Do you know what I mean? Pope St. John Paul II said, if our religion is only inherited cultural baggage, it ain’t going to persevere.
You are an expert on Catholicism in this country. [Cardinal Dolan: Well, thanks.] Where does the story of Catholicism in America stand right now, at the 250th anniversary of our country’s founding?
Big time. In many ways, never has the Catholic Church had more of an illumination upon our culture. All right? So Catholics are well-educated. They’re prosperous. They have positions of leadership, responsibility and service within our communities. They’re active in government. Those are ways that our Catholic values can influence the land that we love. And that sure wasn’t true at the beginning, right? In 1776, Catholics in the United States were less than 1% of the population, mostly in which states? Pennsylvania, all right, and Maryland. Okay. Now, Catholicism is the largest single Christian denomination. Recent evidence would say we’re getting a little stronger and more numerous after some decades of shrinkage — people going back to church, people recovering, worth recovering, the faith. But, so, it’s strong. It’s very strong. And from the beginning, Catholic leaders, especially our bishops, have said, you know, it’s a shame that the Church seems to be despised in our culture because Catholic values and American values are very similar. We both believe in the Bible. We both believe in prayer. We both believe in faith. We both believe in religious freedom. We both believe in one nation under God. We both believe in the role of the family.
We both believe in the principle of subsidiarity. We both believe in the power of democracy. We both believe in the drive to protect the common good. Those are Catholic values. Those are American values. We at the beginning said, it’s a shame we ain’t coming together, and we gradually have come closer and closer together. That’s good news, Mark.
What’s bad news? The more similar we become to culture, sometimes the more at odds we come with our Catholic beliefs. You know what I’m saying? Have we had to sacrifice anything essential to our faith to get along and be accepted in our culture? We talked about something earlier. For some Catholic politicians, they simply can’t say, “I’m for the life of the baby in the womb. I better not say that because I’ll get nowhere in my party.” That’s a shame. Thank God, Martin Luther King didn’t believe that. You know what? Thank God, the Catholic peace activists in the ’60s didn’t believe that. They said, “We don’t care. These are Gospel values, and we’re standing up for them, even if it costs us some cachet in the political system.” So there’s always got to be a countercultural [aspect], right?
While we want to embrace what’s good and beaming in the American culture, we also know that we’re somewhat countercultural. Why? Because our true citizenship is in heaven. And Jesus, our founder, says, “My kingdom is not of this world.”
A Catholic comes to you and says, “But, Cardinal, I’m American. I’m free. I have the right to choose.” We use the term “cafeteria Catholics.” You might see a lot of Catholics that don’t agree with all the teachings of the Church; they might think they can pick and choose: “Why not? It’s a free country. Why can’t I do that?”
Hey, remember, according to the Bible, freedom, autonomy, independence is not the license to do whatever you want, whenever you want, with whomever you want, wherever you want. It’s the ability to do what we ought — what we ought. That’s genuine freedom. That’s true freedom.
On the topic of the Pope, 250th anniversary of America’s founding, we have our first American Pope. [Cardinal Dolan: Yeah, is that good news?] Not bad timing, right?
Not bad, huh?
I want to ask you one thing: Catholics, towards the end of Pope Francis’ time, heard a lot about synodality. I’m curious. A lot of them still had questions. What does that mean? Is that something that’s still happening in the Church? Is that still a project of Pope Leo in the Church? Is this something that we just heard with Francis? What did he mean by synodality?
No, I think Pope Francis was wise in saying — he didn’t say, “Oh, we need to invent this new idea of synodality.” He kind of says, “Synodality is an important component of the Church’s rhythm and process in the world.” And it’s been there since the Acts of the Apostles. We’ve always had it. I think he wanted to … and you talk about “worth recovering,” I think he wanted to refine it. He wanted to strengthen it. He wanted to highlight it. But it’s not some dashing new idea. We’ve been doing it all the time. Most of a bishop’s day, most of a priest’s day, most of a serious Catholic’s day, would be, if he or she is within the church, would be in synodality. We’re on parish councils. We’re on the school council. We’re on religious-ed council. I got my priest council. I got my religious women council. I got the finance council. I got the health-care council. This is all synodality, when you’re sitting around with tremendously enlightened, committed Catholics who share with you their application of the teaching of Jesus. … We’ve got it. Our bishops’ conference since the days of John Carroll — he became our first bishop.
He’s called his priests together. He’s called his brother bishops together. Okay, this is synodality. It’s a good thing. It’s been going on in the Church for a long time. Bravo, Pope Francis. Thanks for saying, “Hey, let’s not forget synodality. It’s a good thing. Let’s be grateful for it. Let’s make sure we got it.” And I think we do. So let’s move on.
This year will be the 25th anniversary of 9/11. As archbishop, you’ve had year after year to commemorate this tragedy.
We do. It’s big. It’s almost become a holy day of obligation here in the Catholic family of New York because it has such an impact. I mean, we still, we would gather every 9/11. I’d go to fire stations. I’d go to precincts. We’d go to the site. We would go to cemeteries. We would go to parishes where people still mourned those killed 25 years ago. It’s still vivid, vivid, vivid memories. And so, since 9/11, we’ve had two popes visit the United States, Benedict XVI and Francis. Both of them said, we want to go to 9/11, because it has international impact.
You’ve been coming to “New York Encounter” for years.
I have.
What do you make of this movement?
Is this your first one? [Mark Irons: Second.] It’s your second one. Are you familiar with Comunione e Liberazione [Communion and Liberation]?
I’m learning more about it.
Father [Luigi] GiussanI — and a great guy. I love Comunione e Liberazione. I’m grateful that they’re in the archdiocese. I keep teasing them that I can’t understand a word he wrote. But all I know is, as Jesus said, by the fruits you’ll know them. So when you see — always on presidents’ weekend — you’d have thousands of people come; many of them young men and women and young families. There’s always a traffic jam here, I joke, of baby carriages. And so even if you’re unfamiliar with Comunione e Liberazione, Communion and Liberation, you can’t help but love what they do. By their fruits you will know them. And one of Father Giussani’s great insights was that when we speak about the faith, when we speak about the revelation of God, when we speak about our Catholic family, we’re just not talking about some little squared-off area of our life. We’re talking about an integrated, coherent vision of life. So anything that enhances the human person, anything that promotes truth, goodness and beauty is part of the Catholic vision. And anything we can do to enhance that and to strengthen that, let’s do it. And that’s what this weekend does, the “Encounter.”
Last question: As a New Yorker, you might be familiar with The New York Times bestseller list. I want to get Cardinal Dolan’s bestseller list. What are your book recommendations? I know you’re well-read. Give me some book recommendations for people who are just starting their journey of Catholicism, wanting to grow in faith, and maybe some recommendations for someone who wants to develop their faith further. Any book recommendations?
Well, sure. Here’s what we can’t forget, all right? EWTN, by the way, does a fine job in often promoting what we call lectio divina. Lectio divina means “divine reading” the Bible, all right? So whenever somebody says, “Hey, you got a good book that I should read?” I said, “Yeah, have you ever read the Gospel of Mark?” “Well, I haven’t sat down and read it, but I hear it.” I said, “Read that.” Okay, so we never want to [Mark Irons: Start with the Bible.] Secondly, Mark, let’s not ignore the Catechism, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. What is it now? About 30, it’s over 30 years of age. A magnificent book, not just this reference, but a beautifully flowing catechesis instruction on the life of faith. Okay. Let’s not forget — and I’m thrilled that Pope Leo XIV is calling us back to that — let’s talk about the documents of the Second Vatican Council. Those are masterpieces. As commentators, as historians on the Second Vatican Council that now was 60 years ago when it ended, said, one of the tragedies of the Second Vatican Council is that 99. 9% of Catholics never read the documents. We thought we knew what they said as we listened to the 20-second summaries from Walter Cronkite each night.
No. Read the bloomin’ documents of the Second Vatican Council. All right? So what else? You want a humdinger? How about Fulton Sheen’s Life of Christ? [Mark: Good time to do Fulton Sheen now, right?] Fulton Sheen Life of Christ.
You’re excited about the beatification?
You bet I am. What about some of the old classics, The Imitation of Christ? You read it? What about … I was out with a … if I said the name, you would recognize immediately. [Mark Irons: You should tell us.] But I can’t say the name because when I’m with this person, it’s … anyway. We always talk about what we’re reading. This guy is not a Catholic. He’s religious in the generic sense of the word because we talk about religion. We always talk about “What are you reading?” He said, “Oh, I just finished Story of a Soul, the autobiography by the Little Flower, St. Thérèse of Lisieux.” I said, “You read that?” He said, “Yeah. I was looking at a list, and it said, ‘You’re interested in the interior life and the beauty and the tremendous heavenly power of a humble, simple childlike soul? Read this.’” And he said, “I’m glad I did.” There’s some.
Thank you so much. Cardinal Dolan, thank you so much for taking the time.
Mark, see you next year at the “Encounter.” [Mark Irons: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.] God bless EWTN.
